Villains Land, Smuggler’s Run, Josh D’Amaro & Experiential Intelligence

All last week you probably heard rumors about Josh D’Amaro changing out plans for Villains Land. You may have also heard that he said that he thought Millennium Falcon Smuggler’s Run was good not great. We talk about this and more as we look at these issues in greater context and offer you insights that may not make enough social media hits, but will likely be closer to what is really going on at Imagineering. Yes, there are changes. Yes, there is greater transparency. But what does it mean? We’ll offer you insights, and how it relates to something called Experiential Intelligence. Join us as we talk about Villains Land, Smuggler’s Run, Josh D’Amaro, Experiential intelligence and so much more.

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Experience Intelligence

Much of what has set off social media in the last couple of weeks came in the form of an article written by Marcus Buckingham. In Harvard Business Review, Marcus had a chance to spend a day with Josh D’Amaro out in the parks, another day in business meetings with him and a third day with Josh meeting with Imagineers. Marcus noted Josh’s experiential intelligence, or the ability to read and shape the human experience. Buckingham stated:

“Under his leadership, cast members did not respond because they were pressured. They responded because they felt seen, trusted, capable and proud of what they were a part of. Guests responded because they too felt seen and their love of Disney honored and reciprocated.”

You may or may not be familiar with emotional intelligence or EI. In Daniel Goleman’s Emotional Intelligence model, he talks about two dimensions of EI played out internally with one’s self–understanding how you are and how you come across to others and with one’s social awareness–not only empathizing with others but being able to relate to others. In Buckingham’s model, he notes examples of that of how Josh exhibits these traits.

Josh also exhibits what Buckingham refers to as experience intelligence but I refer to as being Experiential Intelligence In my model, that form exhibits itself in real-time and also strategically.

Let’s see how that played out in Buckingham’s article.

Millennium Falcon

In that third day the following occurred while Josh visited Imagineers. Buckingham notes:

I was in a conference room with 30 Imagineers and operators discussing a redesign of the Millennium Falcon ride. The ride already had a two-hour wait, but the issue they were discussing wasn’t demand.

“Guests like it,” Josh said, “but they don’t love it.”

The redesign they planned in that room meant no one on the ride would merely be a passenger. It would give each person agency—the chance to influence the outcome, demonstrate skill, and feel part of the story. Instead of leaving saying, “I liked it,” riders could leave saying, “I loved it.” (When the ride opens in May, Josh will learn whether his diagnosis was on point!)

Many have been all over this example to say that Josh is more transparent than prior leaders. That is re very true. But understand that what’s really playing out is his ability to really care more about what guests think and to be in touch with what guests feel. This is that Experiential Intelligence that I’m referring to. It’s not just understanding how other feel, but being able to lead an organization in this case, in strategically making changes based on how customer feel about something.

Villains Land

The same could be perhaps be said of what is going on with Villains Land. on the forums page of WDWMagic, Len Testa of Touring Plans noted:

“I’m hearing the initial plans for Villains Land have been scrapped. Imagineers have been told to think of bigger, bolder ideas. Budget secondary. Not sure if this is “new players, new game” re: Josh as CEO.”

As Len mentioned later in his podcast, maybe it was a slow news week but that quotation really took off with the wider social media community.

You’ll recall that the Villains Land concept was not just presented at D23 in 2024 but was floated back in 2022. And at that time it was referred to as a “Beyond Big Thunder Mountain and included not just a Villains Land but also Coco and Encanto. Those projects have moved elsewhere, and Piston Peak has moved in not beyond but in front of Big Thunder Mountain. If anything has happened recently, it is simply an iterative change which is a part of ride and show design. It is nothing for people to make a presentation, and then to have someone suggest something bigger and bolder. For instance, Disney’s 1976 annual report shows Marty Sklar, John Hench, and John DeCuir, of what was then WED Enterprises, discussing the key concept at that time, which was merging World Showcase and Future World into one major exposition. This was a major “aha” that saved the company substantial money in only having to build one infrastructure to serve the park rather than two infrastructures for two parks.

In defending the ongoing work, the report went on to say, “This evolutionary creative process is natural to any development of any project at Walt Disney Productions. The report noted: It was ‘Plan 67’ which was finally built at Disneyland, and it is ‘Plan 17’ that you see at Walt Disney World today.”

I would love to know what the number was on Epcot when it was finally built. I’m sure the number was high. And I’m sure the number for Villains Land will be high as well. Iterative design is incredibly important to the success of an attraction that guests will ultimately love. Does it kick the price higher and move back the opening date? Not by much if you keep the process iterative and don’t move too far down the path before needing to make alterations. I spoke of this a few podcasts ago when I talked about the Book How Big Things Get Done. The Iron Law of Project Management says There is only a 0.5 percent chance that a big project–and Villains Land is a big project–that it gets done on time, on budget and on benefit. On benefit translated at Disney actually means that people Love It-not Like it-but Love it. The book talks about how you have to act slow and then build fast to make it work. In many ways, the act slow since before D23 to now is a precursor for ultimately doing a major theme park project like this right.

Why This Matters

Josh isn’t trying to just please Guests because he loves Guests–which I believe he truly does. He also as the new CEO has to love shareholders. Eisner in his congratulatory text to Josh said, Creativity will handle profits. There is a remarkable difference in the spending habits of people who like something and who love something. Yes, it’s about making vacation plans to come to a park–and even buying DVC if they love it so much. But there’s also the per caps–They have to have that butter beer, i.e. food & beverage; they have to have that light saber, i.e. retail; And now, they have to have that lightning lane. And they have to want to have it trip after trip after trip. That is the power of loving something more than liking something.

If Villains Land comes off right, if the new version of Smuggler’s Run comes off right, if anything like the new Encanto, Piston Peak, Avenger’s campus attractions of Coco comes off right, it will mean serious increases to the bottom line.

So How Do You Make That Happen?

Where Marcus Buckingham and I agree is that it is based on a leader exhibiting Experience or Experiential Intelligence, however you care to give it a name. Where I somewhat depart from Buckingham is that he is very comfortable about making Experience Intelligence about being able to show love. Love when attached to customers loving a product or brand makes sense. It’s a little harder when it is characterized by the love a CEO has for others he serves. I get it, but I know it’s harder for others to translate that for themselves. He notes: The most intelligent organizations are selecting leaders who understand that experiences where people say, “Love that!” are by far the most powerful force in the business. They are choosing leaders who know how to unleash this force.”

I get that. I couldn’t agree more. Where I take it is that it’s not just about showing Love but acting on it whether it’s done tactically or strategically. A leader who can look at the experience in real time and say what about our product, service, setting, processes and people are making this experience work? How can I get my front line operational leaders to think and look at that in real time? I can also see that in strategic leadership where someone like Josh realizes that people like Millennium Falcon, but they don’t love it, so therefore we need to do something different–which is what is happening with the changes coming to the attraction. It will reopen with more interactions for gunners and engineers when Mandalorian and Grogu premiere in theaters. Rather than the word Love I would use the word Passion. And passion equals patience. The patience to think it through slowly and methodically, but then move fast when you’ve got it right.

And with Disney, this means doing so on all cylinders. This is where Josh’s challenge is moving forward. He could shape the ride experience, but until now, he wasn’t able to shape the film that is set to premiere the same day as the newly refurbished attraction. Right now, excitement about the Mandalorian film is mixed, This is what he will need to do going forward as CEO–get people to love the movie, so that they can love the ride. This has been the challenge of Disney CEO’s before, but I think Josh brings more emotional intelligence to the forefront. And that’s important, because films in theaters and rides in parks cost more than ever. You have to know that guests will not just like it, they will love it. Because the behavior of someone who loves it is different than someone who likes it. Someone who loves it will go back to the theater and watch it again, or get merchandise, or make sure to check out the theme park attraction based on it. So much, that they will by some form of Lightning Lane to make sure they get on it–and maybe more than once. That’s the power of love it versus like it.

But the stakes for building big attractions that follow big promising films is getting higher. Makes sense that Zootopia land finds itself in China. It has huge appeal to the Chinese. Does it have that same appeal in the United States to build a Zootopia land in Disneyland or Walt Disney World? If so, in both resorts? If in both resorts, would you do it in different forms?

Building big attractions that followed in the wake of big promising films is the story of Avatar. The first two Avatar films did very well in the box office. On that chance, Disney not only took the risk of building an entire land in Disney’s Animal Kingdom, but bought the franchise in the acquisition of 20th Century Fox. Then they made an even bolder move to not only create another version of this attraction in Disney California Adventure on the West Coast, but to make that version a completely brand new style attraction.

Now well after Josh said shovels in the ground on attractions, the Disney California Adventure version of Avatar still hasn’t been dug. Coco, Marvel, Villains, Monsters Inc., Encanto and many more have had shovels in the ground. This one hasn’t. In all fairness, there is a massive domino play in which the entire East pedestrian entrance to the park has to be reconfigured to include former buses from the Toy Story lot, a new parking lot. There’s just a lot going on. Quietly, the Monster’s Inc. attraction at Hollywood Backlot was supposed to close right now in an effort to be put under the knife, but was quietly shared last week that it would remain open until 2027 (and that could be December 2027). In some way, it shows great experiential leadership to prolong that attraction and area as possible to make sure there are as many attraction options open in the park at any one time. But this is the challenge for Josh. What kind of investment do you make in a film series that is costing more each time one is made, and yet does less at the box office? How do you turn that around? That will require Josh’s best experiential leadership. My guess is that the movie side of the house needs to do more to think slow, and then act fast.

It’s More Than Synergy–It’s Experiential Leadership

Josh’s challenge moving into the CEO role will be how to marry this Experiential Leadership into the entire Disney portfolio. Synergy, the idea that 1 + 1 = 3, is not a new term at Disney. It’s been a hot one since Little Mermaid and Beauty and the Beast. It’s why those properties in particular can be found in more than one Walt Disney World park, and why there have been broadway shows and tied-in merchandise and everything else. But again, the stakes are high, higher than ever before, and it’s not just about liking something. it’s about loving something. Experiential Intelligence is needed to know what it takes–whether it’s a TV show or a T-Shirt–what makes people love it. As Marcus Buckingham’s Harvard Business Review article ended, he stated that Josh D’Amaro noted “Disney is a delicate brand…Anything I can do to help more guests say they love Disney is a valuable use of my time.”

And that, is Experiential Leadership.

Souvenirs for You and Your Organization

Here’s some free souvenirs to take from this presentation. Ask yourself the following:

• How can you get your customers to not just like something but to love something?
• Ho can you get your employees to not just like their job, but to love working for you?
• How can you think thoughtfully about what you can provide your customers, and then act quickly on it?
• How can experiential intelligence help you to offer real time leadership in the moment, in the trench?
• How can experiential intelligence help you to offer strategic leadership as to where to create the best customer experience possible?

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David & Leah Zanolla

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Thanks for joining us for this podcast. Know that as in the title of Performance Journeys, it’s as much about the journey as it is about performance. Find the second star to the right, and keep going straight on till you reach it. Follow the compass of your heart, and know that with a smile and a song, a little faith, effort and pixie dust, your dreams can come true. After all, if we can dream it, we can do it. Until next time, bright suns, we’ll see you real soon!